Attached is the transcript of the July 2010 LOPSA Live! session. This session includes thanks to Moose, Sysadmin Day and events, upcoming Board activities, OLF/OLFu, Seattle Area conference in the formative stages needing volunteers, the Mentoring Program, LISA coming up, and work beginning on the next Salary Survey. The long meeting was called to an end and the channel left open for a longer public discussion afterward on unprofessional behaviour in our public forums that is included separately as well. As always, volunteers are needed for most if not all of the above, contact us if you want to help out at board@lopsa.org.

Also included inline here for easier reading in a browser.

[Thu 2010/07/29 16:00:02] <dparter> we will be starting in a moment or two.....
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:00:48] <wbilancio>
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:01:35] * jss cues up the theme music.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:01:46] * asm2home cues the dramatic lighting
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:02:27] * asm2home does the 5-4 3 fingers thing and points at pckizer
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:02:36] <beastlyone> don't forget the smoke machine
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:03:08] * cat-xeger blinks wearily, and waits for the ***SHAZAM!!!***
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:03:10] <dparter> welcome everyone. I am your moderator today
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:03:22] <jss> Hello, Parter!
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:03:47] <mrbucket> i am mentally playing the final countdown
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:03:59] <dparter> Not all of the board can be here today (work has a way of interrupting our lives), but most of us are here
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:04:23] <dparter> First we have some housekeeping and announcements
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:04:55] <dparter> Please try and not clutter the channel with comments that are not on topic, and please let whoever is "speaking" finish their thoughts
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:05:05] <dparter> and take into account both netlag and typing lag
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:05:51] <dparter> Many of you probably saw the LOPSAgram announcement that Tom Perrine has been appointed as chair of the leadership committee.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:06:48] <dparter> The LOPSAgram had a lot of content -- more than most -- and we've all been a bit busy with other stuff. We forgot a very important part of that message, which is to thank Moose for serving as chair of the leadership committee for the past several years
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:07:07] <mackr> Moose!
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:07:14] <dparter> In addition to the Leadership Committee, Moose is also a very active volunteer on the Education Comittee
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:07:35] mizmoose (~chatzilla@[host-elided]) Has Joined Channel #lopsa-live
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:07:41] <dparter> So, our apologies for the missing thankyou, and a very sincere thank you
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:07:50] <dparter> to Moose, who just walked intothe room
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:08:03] * jss applauds mizmoose.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:08:22] * lois also applauds mizmoose!!!
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:08:28] <dparter> And since she just arrived, I'll repeat what I just said:
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:08:46] <dparter> Many of you probably saw the LOPSAgram announcement that Tom Perrine has been appointed as chair of the leadership committee. The LOPSAgram had a lot of content -- more than most -- and we've all been a bit busy with other stuff. We forgot a very important part of that message, which is to thank Moose for serving as chair of the leadership committee for the past several years. In addition to the Leadership Committee, Moose is also a very active vo
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:09:11] <asm2home> dparter: you truncated at "very active vo"
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:09:22] <dparter>
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:09:30] <dparter> In addition to the Leadership Committee, Moose is also a very active volunteer on the Education Comittee.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:09:42] <dparter> We will have an update from the Education Comittee later
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:10:42] <dparter> Related to the Leadership Committee, Tom Perrine can not make it today
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:11:14] <dparter> Next Topic:
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:11:40] <dparter> For those who have not noticed, tomorrow is System Administrator Appreciation Day, and there are some parties (or so I hear)
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:12:01] <dparter> There is one in the NY Metro area: http://www.standalone-sysadmin.com/blog/sysadmin-day-get-together/
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:12:05] <lopbot> Title: SysAdmin Day Meetup | Standalone Sysadmin, http://tinyurl.com/mrau8t, sent 1y 1m 23d 22h 40m 24s ago by MPSimmons in #lopsa
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:12:18] <dparter> (thank you lopbot)
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:12:31] <lois> and
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:12:49] <lois> fourth annual System Administrator Appreciation Party on July 28 at DNA Lounge in San Francisco's SOMA district (375 Eleventh Street) from 6 p.m. to 10 p.m. RSVP here: http://sysadminappreciation.eventbrite.com/
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:13:21] <dparter> I think I'll declare a party for Madison tomorrow night :)
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:13:44] <dparter> Also, for Sysadmin Appreciation Day, we are having a special on Membership:
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:14:02] <dparter> 40% off on membership Friday-Sunday
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:14:23] <dparter> Now is a great time to signup (or twist arms) your co-workers and other sysadmin friends
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:14:41] <jss> There's a mini SAD party tomorrow in Ann Arbor MI -- contact me privately for details.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:14:53] <dparter> and that includes includes renewals
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:15:06] <atsaloli> yay!
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:15:15] <dparter> BTW it has just been pointed out that the party in SOMA was yesterday. ooops.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:15:22] <dparter> I'm sure they had a good time :)
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:15:37] <dparter> Moving on from parties...
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:16:22] <dparter> The Board normally meets via conference call every two weeks (augmented during the call by irc, and supplemented by irc and email in between).
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:16:56] <dparter> This has been very efficient for some things, but is not a good format for the kind of planning we need to do every so often
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:18:04] <dparter> We have decided to have an in-person meeting in September, which we are paying for ourselves (not LOPSA). Since we have a number of board members in the NY area, we are meeting in NJ at William Bilancio's office.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:18:29] <dparter> We hope to do some serious planning and kick start (and streamline) some of our long-stalled initiatives
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:18:54] <atsaloli> thank you
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:19:24] <dparter> We don't have firm plans yet, but I think we'll be asking for some input and ideas both before and after that meeting
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:20:46] <dparter> Also in board housekeeping, the board has an annual board meeting every summer. One of the requirements of that meeting is to elect or reaffirm the board officers. We will be doing that on Monday, August 2 (if i can read my calendar correctly)
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:21:16] <dparter> OK.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:21:51] <dparter> pckizer has corrected me, the annual meeting is on the 9th
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:22:28] <dparter> Next topic:
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:23:21] <dparter> Our next big event is LOPSA training at OLFU, part of the Ohio Linux Fest
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:23:38] <dparter> wbilancio: do you want to give the OLFU report?
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:24:01] <wbilancio> no probSure
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:24:15] <wbilancio> We will be having 6 classes
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:24:34] <wbilancio> 1. IPv6 - Dale Carder, super smart network guy from UW dwcarder@wisc.edu
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:24:34] <wbilancio> 2. Application Acceleration and Cloud Storage - Chris Robertson (Cambrideg Computing)
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:24:38] <wbilancio> 3. Black Magic: Troubleshooting and System Administration - Billings jsbillings@gmail.com
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:24:41] <wbilancio> 4. Cfengine 3 - Aleksey atsaloli.tech@gmail.com
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:24:44] <wbilancio> 5. Monitoring/NAGIOS - John Sellens jsellens@syonex.com
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:25:08] <wbilancio> 6.data senter seminar
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:25:12] <wbilancio> center
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:25:34] <wbilancio> By Terry Bradshaw ... Not the football player
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:26:00] <wbilancio> These classes will be held on Friday Sept 10
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:26:17] <wbilancio> More info will be going up on the LOPSA website in the next few days
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:27:07] <wbilancio> We have been working close with moose as the OLFu cordinator
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:27:43] <dparter> thank you William
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:27:47] <wbilancio> no thank you
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:28:15] <dparter> For those who don't know, OLF is a big open source event in Columbus, Ohio.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:28:27] <dparter> mizmoose: do you want to say more about OLF/OLFU?
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:29:12] <dparter> OK, she may not be here right now
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:29:21] <mizmoose> Wearing my OLF hat -- OLFU is going to have 11 classes total, mostly aimed for sysadmins. In addition to the 6 amazing classes from LOPSA we have others
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:29:29] <mizmoose> heh sorry
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:29:32] <dparter> (thats ok)
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:30:12] <mizmoose> including a set of Python for sysadmins class, and a class about doing disk data recovery with Linux
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:31:23] <mizmoose> Ohio LinuxFest is a 3 day event, our website is http://www.ohiolinux.org. Registration for the classes is $350 which includes registration for the main conference, lunch on both days and a spiffy tshirt. You can register in the next coulpel of days
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:31:23] <lopbot> Title: Ohio LinuxFest 2010 | Free and Open Software Conference and Expo - Columbus, Ohi ..., sent 11m 10d 6h 38m 39s ago by jtrucks in #lopsa
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:31:28] <mizmoose> we had a massive server crash :/
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:31:34] <mizmoose> thanks, parter
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:31:38] <dparter> Thanks
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:32:09] <dparter> I have been at the last couple OLFU/OLF events, and "it isn't just for ohio" -- people come from all over, it is a really good event.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:32:19] <dparter> Shifting around the map...
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:33:17] <dparter> Last Spring the NJ LOPSA chapter put on a community conference (PICC) that was great. We are now working with SASAG to do a conference in Seattle early next year.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:33:24] <dparter> ENOMAD: do you want to talk about it?
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:33:29] <ENOMAD> thanks :)
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:33:49] <ENOMAD> We're modeling the conference (currently named NetWit - NorthWest IT) on PICC.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:34:02] <ENOMAD> so far we don't have a lot nailed down - we need to get a venue and a budget
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:34:20] <ENOMAD> but we're aiming for the last weekend in Feb or the first weekend in Mar. Friday and Saturday.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:34:40] <ENOMAD> Probably 3-4 tracks of tuts on Friday, 1 tutorial, 2 technical, and an unconference track on Saturday
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:34:50] <ENOMAD> What I need right now are volunteers.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:35:00] <ENOMAD> If you're interested in helping please email me at nomad@sasag.org
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:35:04] <ENOMAD> any questions?
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:35:30] <dparter> Thank you
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:35:42] <ENOMAD> thanks, there should be more later. :)
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:36:04] <dparter> I'd like to add that both PICC and "NetWit" are aimed at all sysadmins -- *nix, windows, network, ...
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:36:36] <dparter> and also trying to keep the costs down so more people can participate
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:36:47] <dparter> lois has an update on the mentoring project
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:37:19] <lois> the LOPSA Mentorship Program is taking shape.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:37:31] <lois> Since May when we announced that we were doing a mentorship program at thePICC conference 29 people have volunteered to be mentors, 20 people have said they want to be mentored, 22 people are on the team.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:37:48] <lois> These people do overlap roles we have so we actually have 39 people who have asked to be involved in the program including someone from India and someone from Germany.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:38:23] <lois> We have had 2 team meetings and expect to have a couple of mentor-protege pairs matched up to work on a project by the end of next week.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:38:39] <lois> Next week sometime you should see more information about the shape of the program on lopsa.org.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:38:57] <lois> Meanwhile a quick outline: a protege who wants to be mentored comes up with a short term project
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:39:08] <lois> he/she needs help with and describes said project.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:39:22] <lois> A mentor is found and the two work together for the span of the project (a couple of week- a couple of months)
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:39:34] <lois> At the end of the project the pair write up a final description of the project and how it went. We also hope to have them check in with a mentor-coordinator from time to time to let us know that it is working out for both.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:39:53] <lois> The committee has agreed to meet once a week to keep the project moving forward.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:40:15] <lois> I have been acting as chair but we need a chairperson to plan meetings and contact the group.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:40:45] <dparter> lois: I have a question about the mentorship program:
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:40:51] <dparter> will there be anyh kind of lessons learned or blogging on lopsa.org by the protoge and mentor?
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:41:00] <lois> Yes
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:41:15] <dparter> (and no, I am not a shill, I just cam eup with that)
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:41:22] <lois> we do expect to have various online
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:41:41] <lois> venues
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:41:44] <lois> :-)
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:41:58] <dparter> does anyone have any other questions for lois about the mentoring program?
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:42:02] <lois> Those have not yet been worked out.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:42:33] <lois> I am very excited that we have gotten started.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:42:46] <lois> You will be hearing a lot from us.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:43:23] <lois> We want to hear from you.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:44:00] <lois> you can contact the program by emailing mentor-coordinator@lopsa.org
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:44:42] <dparter> Thank you Lois, and thanks to everyone who has volunteered for the mentoring project
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:44:49] <dparter> A few other things on our radar:
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:45:01] <dparter> the LISA conference of course
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:45:38] <lois> It's not to late to put in a poster proposal for LISA.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:46:10] <dparter> we are also hoping to do something with some kind of sysadmin workplace/salary survey. we don't really know the parameters of that yet. I personally hope that we can leverage expertise in other areas to make a sysadmin survey be really useful
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:47:38] <dparter> And now, if anyone has any questions?
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:47:43] <mrbucket> hmm.. doesnt one of those happen already?
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:47:49] <mrbucket> not that im saying its a bad thing
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:48:01] <asm2home> Last SAGE salary survey was 2007.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:48:01] <mrbucket> just curious, im new here *wears new hat*
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:48:01] <dparter> mrbucket: a salary survey?
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:48:08] <mrbucket> asm2home: ahh ok. dated.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:48:13] <mizmoose> I have a question
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:48:18] <dparter> yes, there are some salaray surveys around
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:48:19] <mrbucket> dparter: yes, asm2home read my mind
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:48:37] <asm2home> "Three of clubs!"
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:48:40] <asm2home> :-)
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:48:50] <dparter> I am hoping that we can do something more than that, and work with (for example) HR people, and/or perhaps some others to try and get more meaningful results
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:48:58] <dparter> mizmoose: yes?
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:49:07] <mizmoose> It's not about the salary survey, it's more general
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:49:16] <mrbucket> Gotcha. Thanks :)
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:49:20] <dparter> mizmoose: go ahead
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:49:33] <mizmoose> When will the LOPSA board be creating a policy to deal with the sexist behaviors in the public communities, especially the IRC channel?
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:50:25] <pck> on policies for IRC
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:50:35] <dparter> pck: pardon me for a moment
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:50:43] <dparter> Philip (pck) is the LOPSA President
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:50:46] <dparter> go ahead, please
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:50:53] * pck thanks dparter
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:52:26] <pck> to date we have held sexism in the same category as racism or sexual orientation bashing or even ageism in that we don't have policies explicitly mentioning them either
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:52:51] <pck> they all are current under the guise of professional behaviour in that those are not professional ways to act
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:53:22] * cat-xeger agrees -- professional behaviour these days dictates that sexism is not appropriate
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:54:31] <asm2home> So are there policies for dealing with any of these "unwanted" behaviors?
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:55:03] <pck> do you have a specific suggestions for policies that should be put into place for such public forums as the IRC channel you single out?
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:55:37] <asm2home> Me? No -- but I think that's the question on the floor.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:56:02] <pck> oh, sorry adam, that was stating the general question, not directly to you
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:56:21] <asm2home> Ah. OKI. nevermiond.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:57:04] <mizmoose> http://www.wikihow.com/wikiHow:IRC-Governance
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:57:05] <lopbot> Title: wikiHow:IRC Governance - wikiHow
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:57:32] <mizmoose> perhaps wordy, but an excellent example of how other folks handle things
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:57:58] <pck> I'll go take a look at that, thanks for the link!
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:58:14] <mizmoose> you are welcome.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:58:43] <mizmoose> However, I do believe it is up to the board to set policy, not the members.
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:58:58] <dparter> mizmoose: thank you for asking the question -- it is a serious issue
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:59:13] <dparter> since the beginning, the irc channel has been in a funny place --
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:59:39] <dparter> it is both open and a LOPSA activity, and how to deal with it has been an on-and-off discussion topin
[Thu 2010/07/29 16:59:46] <dparter> mostly it has been self-policing
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:00:15] <dparter> sometimes board members or others have "taken someone aside" and asked them to change their tone/behavior
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:00:55] <dparter> I know this is a topic for our in-person meeting, and we would appreciate input from anyone/everyone, and we will be looking at the url you posted
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:00:57] <allbery_b> more to the point, it's trying to be both professional and "hallway track" at the same time
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:01:10] <dparter> allbery_b: yes
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:01:36] <dparter> and there are things people would not do or say in person in the "hallway" that they do say on irc
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:01:42] <allbery_b> and it's not clear to me that those functions should be separated, but it does make things difficult
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:01:47] <allbery_b> yes, and recreational too
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:02:25] <dparter> I'd like to ask everyone to look at the url that mizmoose posted and think about it, and send us your feedback
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:03:04] <atsaloli> I'd like more data on what happened, was the offender a LOPSA member?
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:03:15] <atsaloli> or a passerby?
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:03:25] <dparter> atsaloli: in past situations?
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:03:27] <atsaloli> yes
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:03:36] <jss> And how should we provide feedback, board@lopsa.org?
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:03:45] <dparter> yes please -- board@lopsa.org
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:03:46] <atsaloli> I assume something actually happened and this wasn't just a theoretical question on the part of mizmoose
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:04:09] <mizmoose> atsaloli last i checked we don't card people at the IRC door.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:04:11] <dparter> atsaloli: various "somethings" happened, none of whihc were "official" as far as I know
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:04:21] <atsaloli> ok
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:04:42] <dparter> But some irc regulars were "taken aside" in the past. Sometimes they stopped, sometimes they didn't
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:04:48] * atsaloli nods
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:05:08] <mizmoose> It happens from both members and none, one time visitors and regulars
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:05:09] <dparter> sometimes concerted efforts to change the topic were enough
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:05:10] <cat-xeger> atsaloli - there have been some instances of people behaving inappropriately which have generallly been handled by channel regulars.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:05:21] <atsaloli> got it, thanks
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:05:58] <atsaloli> if it's been handled by channel regulars, why do we need a policy? I mean, won't channel regulars continue to handle it?
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:06:07] <dparter> OK, it is past the top of the hour. We can continue this discussion if people want to, but before we do that, are there any other questions?
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:06:16] <dparter> (sorry atsaloli to cut you off)
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:06:18] <atsaloli> np
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:06:31] * ENOMAD shines his LOPSA/Maracopa County Sherif badge and hangs it on proud display.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:06:41] <ENOMAD> Quick update, I've just created an email alias for volunteers and such: netwit-chairs@sasag.org
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:07:33] <dparter> ok, last call for other questions?
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:07:34] <ENOMAD> I should add that the name isn't final yet, if anyone has suggestions for a name for the conference send it to the same address.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:08:28] <dparter> Thank you ENOMAD, and thank you volunteers on other projects, and of course for all of you for participating today. Those who want to stay and talk about irc channel (and other venue) policy concerns.... some of us [at least] will stick around
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:09:38] <lois> Thank you, dparter!
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:09:42] <dparter> np

[Thu 2010/07/29 17:11:04] <dparter> atsaloli: my personal answer to your question: sometimes peer pressure and "regular" works, but irc is such a low-bandwidth channel, it can be awkward
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:11:40] <allbery_b> my own observation is that limiting it to just a few venues is diffficult when it's really a pervasive problem
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:12:03] <allbery_b> rather than channel policies/guidelines/whatever, it needs to be treated as more like professional development
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:12:14] <mizmoose> atsaloli the reason you make policy is not about dealing wht the problem itself, but trying to prevent it in the first place
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:12:16] <dparter> there is no way for the in-person social clues to function to give an offender feedback, and to "take someone aside" means someone has to decide the issue is a big enough issue to make a big deal of it...
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:12:18] <allbery_b> ...because sexism, OS-ism, etc. is not in any sense professional behavior
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:14:42] <dparter> allbery_b: you seem to have stated it so well that no one is responding
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:15:47] <cat-xeger> Indeedy.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:16:02] <Wolfsbruder> forgive me but making policy means enforcing it, which becomes a problem in an open forum with non lopsa members being able to be there
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:16:40] <allbery_b> and yet enforcement is possible. several channels on freenode have policies that they enforce without having heavy-handed moderation; it is possible
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:16:56] <lois> As THE proffessional society we ought to be trying to hold up some principles of professionalism.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:16:59] <cat-xeger> Wolfsbrunder - it's certainly possible, as allbery_b has said.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:16:59] <dballing> We, as a community, suffer from all sorts of "isms" and other unprofessional behavior, but drawing that line is sometimes extremely tough.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:17:04] <atsaloli> +dparter: acknowledged
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:17:11] <Wolfsbruder> Lois, I agree wholeheartedly
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:17:34] <mizmoose> if you read the link I sent, you'll see that they have a method of 'enforcement' suggested, one that other organizations I know have used
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:17:47] <atsaloli> mizmooze: I don't think policy will prevent such occurences. people who'd act unprofessionally in the first place would not stop just because of "policy"
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:17:52] <atsaloli> peer pressure is more immediate and more real
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:17:56] <atsaloli> even though it may be awkward
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:18:07] <mizmoose> Peer pressure is an innappropriate way of dealing with this.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:18:08] <dparter> mizmoose: most of us haven't had a chance to read it yet
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:18:13] <chrisallison> Would it help to put some sort of notice in the channel topic, maybe with a link to a web page with more info? "Welcome to #lopsa. Sexist, Racist, OSist, etc jokes and comments are not welcome. Please see lopsa.org/IRC-Policy for more info."
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:18:14] <jss> So you're saying "Because enforcement is hard, we shouldn't do it"?
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:18:16] <allbery_b> atsaloli: policy is a brickbat to pull out whenb offenders don;t respond to peer pressure
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:18:17] <mizmoose> I understand dparter
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:18:21] <dballing> calling someone a moron, or screaming about the idiots you work with, are all "unprofessional", but by the same token, #lopsa is often used as a place to "vent frustrations to a sympathetic audience"...
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:18:24] <lois> Yes but it wouldbe good to have peer presure backed by policy.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:18:35] <Wolfsbruder> jss, no i am not
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:18:38] <atsaloli> I have no objection to policy
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:18:45] <stevev> atsaloli: Policy is more about ensuring a consistent response to the unwnated behavior.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:18:55] <atsaloli> cool
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:19:02] <atsaloli> a group needs to be in coordination with itself
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:19:06] <atsaloli> thank you
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:19:35] * dparter would like to point out that as a community it is a double-edged sword: I am regularly the focus of a long-running joke in #lopsa, that I find amusing, but others might find unprofessional
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:19:59] <Wolfsbruder> dballing, wouldn't a.s.a.r be a better place to vent?
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:20:06] <dballing> is ASR still around? :-P
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:20:14] <dballing> what's usenet? :-)
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:20:22] <dparter> we want community, and dont' want to stifle that, but want to be professional, without making rigid rules about that that means
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:20:44] <allbery_b> Wolfsbruder: a.s.r is, to many of us, kinda childish
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:20:53] <dparter> dballing: unfortunately, ASR is still alive and well in the mindset of some sysadmins
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:21:04] <Wolfsbruder> yes, but isn't venting in public kind of childish?
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:21:21] <cat-xeger> It depends on how and what you're venting about, IMO
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:21:21] <dballing> Wolfsbruder: I'm not sure I would agree with that.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:21:32] <allbery_b> hence my comment about #lopsa being too many things. it;'s difficult to have it both be a public face and a private venting ground
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:21:53] <chrisallison> How do others feel about a warning in the channel topic? It may not have teeth in any sort of immediate sense (and the initial "Welcome, don't do this, that, or the other thing" might be perceived as too negative), but at least it gets the message out there to both members and drop-ins alike that there are standards of behavior in #lopsa. Or am I thinking about this incorrectly?
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:21:55] <lois> we do have #lopsa-lounge
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:21:57] <allbery_b> also, "public" may be the wrong word. "official", more like'
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:22:17] * chrisallison wants to get the pulse of LOPSA more than he wants feedback on the topic idea.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:22:20] <allbery_b> chrisallison: arguably, the word "Professional" in our name *should* be enough warning
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:22:24] * cat-xeger 's comfortable with "Argh! The monitoring system went off again!" but not "The stupid morons that setup the monitoring system screwed up again"
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:22:52] * Wolfsbruder likes cat-xeger's example
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:22:52] <chrisallison> allbery_b: The current topic is "Welcome to LOPSA | http://www.lopsa.org"
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:22:53] <lopbot> Title: League of Professional System Administrators |, sent 1y 11m 10d 4h 50m 43s ago by nonrandom in #lopsa
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:23:11] * lois == cat-xeger
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:23:14] <chrisallison> If someone drops in from freenode, that may not mean anything to them if they don't stop to do some research first.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:23:26] <dballing> cat-xeger: I prefer the former, but by the same token, find that there are few people outside of the community who a sysadmin can really and truly vent about "less skilled coworkers and management" who will truly understand where the person is coming from
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:23:33] <allbery_b> yes; I prefer it be the long name (we already got the channel name) but others don't necessarily think that way
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:23:51] <dballing> having a sympathetic ear, to know that they're not alone in their shared-frustrations which so many of us have, is (IMHO) a good thing
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:24:11] <cat-xeger> dballing - while this is true, there's a line between grousing about a situation, and attacking other people
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:24:36] <chrisallison> I think that there's a difference between unprofessional and hostile/offensive. Maybe not an important distinction for the purposes of this conversation, but there is one there.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:25:03] <dballing> but when people vent, they often will do the latter, and it's human nature and short of a eugenics program, is unlikely to be bred out of us. :-)
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:25:05] <chrisallison> I would consider the vented anger maybe a little over the top, but at least it's specific, unlike something targeted at a group of some kind.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:25:11] <cat-xeger> (and I know I'm no angel there)
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:25:12] <mizmoose> The topic has been derailed from the original "there is a sexism problem"
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:25:48] <dballing> mizmoose: because I think "sexism" is a subset of "unprofessional behavior"
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:25:51] <allbery_b> sexism is only part of the problem
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:25:58] * cat-xeger agrees
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:26:02] <dballing> there is far more OSism on #lopsa than sexism
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:26:13] <dballing> (for example)
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:26:38] <dballing> at least that I see through my we've-been-dominating-society-for-millenia male eyes. :-)
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:26:50] <cat-xeger> Heh.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:26:58] <cat-xeger> Well... through my female eyes, I happen to agree
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:27:08] <dparter> but the reason we need to talk about it is that while one type of behavior is (or should be) easy to identify as unprofessional, once you start drawing lines ....
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:27:09] <dballing> (hey, you have to acknowledge the bias of the sampling methodology) :-D
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:27:24] <dparter> which doesn't mean do nothing. it means we need to talk it through
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:28:26] <cat-xeger> dparter - it's the grey areas and edge cases that require judgement, and tend to be issues.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:28:33] <mackr> Sexism is more hurtful than OSism.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:28:51] <cat-xeger> mackr - being told "You suck because of $THING" hurts, no matter what.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:28:55] <dballing> mackr: tell that to the windows admin looking for help and getting mocked for his or her choice of OS
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:29:28] <dparter> mackr: yes. but tolerating "less hurtful" unprofessional behavior fosters an atmospher where "more hurtful" unprofessional behavior is more likely?
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:29:30] <mackr> Fair enough, but I still think sexism is more hurtful.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:29:36] <dballing> I'm not trying to say "there's no sexism" or anything like that, but that if we're going to go down this rabbit-hole -- AND WE SHOULD -- that we should do this in a way that gets rid of all the unprofessional behavior
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:29:42] <dparter> or more possible, from those who would say such thing?
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:30:14] <dparter> back up a few lines and s/more likley/also tolerated/
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:30:15] <dballing> (without, hopefully, destroying the character of what makes a #lopsa useful to the community at-large)
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:30:29] <cat-xeger> mackr - in terms of what goes by on #lopsa, I can think of a small handful of sexist incidents, many of which were associated with a specific individual
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:30:33] <jss> Saying one -ism is better/worse or more/less painful than another is unproductive.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:30:40] <dballing> jss: exactly
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:30:49] <cat-xeger> ... but I don't have enough digits to count the number of OS-related comments
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:30:56] <dballing> if it's the -ism that affects YOU, it sucks
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:30:57] <dparter> and on that note, I need to return my limited attention to work....
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:30:57] <cat-xeger> Either way, they're not professional.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:31:08] <mizmoose> I was on #lopsa for less than 10 minutes the other day b efore sexist comments started rolling
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:31:16] <mizmoose> there are far more than a handful
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:31:28] <allbery_b> it's also, however, noit helpful to get bogged down in where to draw the line; sexism, OS-ism, and similar can be tackled immediately while the rest remains under investigation/discussion
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:31:38] <allbery_b> triage is a good thing
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:33:23] <dballing> mizmoose: did you say something to the person who said it? Often, people who are doing things like that don't even realize they are doing so.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:34:27] <mizmoose> 99% of te time when I state "that comment is sexist" what I get back is a flaming attack
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:34:37] <mizmoose> it's not my job to police #lopas
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:35:33] <stevev> Whose job is it to police #lopsa? Does it have real op coverage?
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:35:41] <dballing> two parts, [a] it might be more helpful to explain why it's sexist, and explain exactly why you find it hurtful, [b] we're a community, and we're talking about community reinforcement of good behavior patterns on #lopsa. I'd like to think it's *everyone's* job to police #lopsa.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:36:03] <cat-xeger> mizmoose - It's hard to intuit what people see as sexist -- and doubly hard to react appropriately as a result
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:37:36] <allbery_b> stevev: there isn't a designated "op on duty"
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:37:42] <stevev> I agree that everyone should be able to (professionally) point out and discourage sexist (or *ist) behavior if it appears.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:39:00] <stevev> Actually, I think I mean "point out and discourage unprofessional behavior".
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:39:34] <mackr> Do I have to stop making jokes about eating my colleagues?
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:42:18] <atsaloli> if it's one person that's consistently misbehaving, we do to take action. policy needs to be actionable. it needs to have gradients of actions: private discouragement, public censure, banning from the channel for a week, permanent ban, revoke membership
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:42:28] <atsaloli> need to take action, I meant
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:42:56] <atsaloli> that one person may reform, if they are social
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:42:59] <atsaloli> they may not be social
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:43:27] <atsaloli> I am very glad mizmoose is speaking up about it, in any case!!
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:43:38] <stevev> In addition a policy should provide some useful guidance on what is considered desirable or undesirable behavior. Not just for making decisions about enforcement, but letting people know what's expected of them.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:43:40] <mackr> Yeah, hear hear.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:43:45] <mizmoose> I have been speaking up about it for 2 years now
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:43:59] <mizmoose> but just to individual board members
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:44:02] <atsaloli> I understand
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:44:20] <allbery_b> and youi need to keep kicking asses when it falls off the radar again
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:44:35] <mizmoose> it's still not my job to police lopsa
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:44:40] <mizmoose> less now more than ever
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:45:08] <atsaloli> the group needs to police itself
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:45:12] <atsaloli> you're in the group, mizmoose
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:45:19] <atsaloli> it's up to you, always
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:45:56] <asm2home> moose, as you well know, LOPSA is tight on volunteers, and on volunteer time. If it's important to you, and you want it fixed/changed/whatever, you're probably going to have to drive it -- no matter what "it" is. Should the Board address this? Yes. . . .
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:46:00] <allbery_b> quis custodiet ipsos custodes? ==atsaloli
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:46:11] <stevev> Perhaps mizmoose feels like she's the only one doing any of the policing.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:46:34] <asm2home> Should they address is above/before other things? Hard to say. Will they address it if it's not important to one of them? Probably not. Is it important to one of them? Who knows.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:46:48] <mizmoose> Yes, I know that lopsa is tight on volunteers. It was made clear to me that I'm the reason for it. But that's another story.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:46:56] * cat-xeger thinks that there's a balance to strike, as always
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:46:56] <stevev> At least bringing this up in the larger group may encourage more people to act to discourage unprofessional behavior in #lopsa.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:47:01] <allbery_b> uhhhhh
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:47:18] <atsaloli> i'll certainly discourage it if I hear it in #lopsa
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:47:23] <mizmoose> in any case
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:47:27] <mizmoose> i have elsewhere to be
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:47:43] <atsaloli> ok :)
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:48:16] <drich> while we aren't saying much, a few of the board are still in here listening and we appreciate the discussion
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:48:40] <drich> this will provide quite a bit of additional input when we discuss this at our in-person meeting
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:48:54] <atsaloli> allbery_b: we'll all "guard" each other, that's what I was trying to say. we don't need a special guard.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:49:12] <cat-xeger> FWIW, I try to adhere to a "SFW, work watercooler" type of idea
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:49:13] <atsaloli> policy helps, as it formalizes things; especially as the group grows
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:49:45] <cat-xeger> ... with the understanding that this is supposed to be professional, so "getting back to work", so to speak is something to keep in mind
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:50:00] <dballing> indeed, I should go back to pretending that I work for a living as well.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:50:01] <allbery_b> atsaloli: and that's the answer to the question I asked (a somewhat famous Latin quotation: "who watches the guardians?")
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:50:06] <drich> and that's just what I'm about to do, I have a cacti server that needs some TLC
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:50:15] <cat-xeger> (ergo extended discussions about the best way to shave yaks might well belong somewhere else)
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:50:15] <atsaloli> allbery_b: good :)
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:50:27] * atsaloli needs to get back to work
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:50:28] * stevev has to leave to teach class, bye all
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:50:30] <atsaloli> thank you all
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:50:33] <allbery_b> I think I want to know who smacked moose down about volunteers, and why
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:51:06] <chrisallison> I realize this conversation is winding down, but I'd like to say that while OS-ism, editor wars, etc are definitely unprofessional, I think that there is a BIG difference between "OS-ism" and sexism.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:51:51] <chrisallison> Speaking as a white male: The Sysadmin community doesn't seem to have a shortage of Windows/Linux/etc professionals. The gender and racial disparities seem to be far greater.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:52:42] <cat-xeger> Speaking as somebody that already rings the diversity bell, I'd say that's a larger issue, and be happy to discuss it over a beverage at some point.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:53:20] <cat-xeger> ... but for now, other issues (like food) intrude ;>
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:53:31] <chrisallison> Indeed, but for the purposes of this discussion, I'm not entirely comfortable equating mockery of OS choice with sexist comments.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:53:46] <chrisallison> Bon Appetit.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:54:01] <allbery_b> they are similar only in that they are both examples of unprofessional behavior
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:54:46] <cat-xeger> They can both substantially affect perception of self-worth, and decidedly hrut.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:54:54] <asm2home> chrisallison: Neither help our image.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:55:22] <chrisallison> asm2home: True, but I think that one is more harmful than the other.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:55:42] <chrisallison> I was really struck - and impressed - by the reaction to Werner Vogel's keynote at LISA '09.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:56:34] <asm2home> chrisallison, I think that depends on who hears it.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:56:40] <chrisallison> I thought that I'd left a certain kind of sensitivity behind when I trading being a student for being a sysadmin, but I was really touched in a positive way when people reacted negatively to Werner's objectification of women (animated though they may have been).
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:57:34] <chrisallison> asm2home: As I (should have) said: I don't think that either form exclusionary behavior is professional or appropriate, but I think that there are still issues of degree.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:57:38] <asm2home> I've seen some pretty harsh comments directed at people simply for their choice of O/S.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:58:02] <chrisallison> Fair enough.
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:58:43] <allbery_b> true, but insulting one's O/S is not on the same level as insulting one's *being*
[Thu 2010/07/29 17:59:12] <allbery_b> sexism is demoting someone from "person" to "thing"
[Thu 2010/07/29 18:02:14] <asm2home> allbery_b: But is attacking a perosn because of their choice of O/S significantly "less abd" than attacking them for their skin collor/gender/whatever?
[Thu 2010/07/29 18:03:06] <allbery_b> I would say that (effectively) denying one's personhood is worse, yes
[Thu 2010/07/29 18:04:55] <cparedes> thankfully, i've lived in a very liberal city for my whole life, so i haven't had to go through so much racist stuff when i was growing up. but occasionally, people will reduce me down to a caricature of, well, basically, a nerdy asian who only does math all day. and to be honest, i can shrug off most attacks on my choice of operating systems (mostly because i use all three major choices extensively), and i can't say i can shrug off the racist
[Thu 2010/07/29 18:06:07] * cparedes has given his two cents, he will scurry off now
[Thu 2010/07/29 18:06:58] <allbery_b> but you've helped make my point
[Thu 2010/07/29 18:07:20] <allbery_b> you can insult what I have (OS), or what I am (gender, sexual preference, skin color, ...)
[Thu 2010/07/29 18:07:28] <allbery_b> I think there's no question the latter is worse
[Thu 2010/07/29 18:09:45] <asm2home> OK, that's fair. I guess I was thinking 1) in the context of #lopsa, and 2) given what I believe is a heavy skew towards "OS-ism" and much less towards sexism.
[Thu 2010/07/29 18:10:41] <asm2home> For example, while I've seen plenty of "sex-related comments," I don't recall ever seeing someone say anything like "you're a girl; you don't know anything."
[Thu 2010/07/29 18:10:51] <allbery_b> part of the issue is the sheer pervasiveness of sexism. what many men would consider meaningless banter is often quite painful to women
[Thu 2010/07/29 18:11:07] <asm2home> Sure, some people may well think that way, and act that way, but I don't think anyone has ever said as much.
[Thu 2010/07/29 18:11:22] <asm2home> a_b: I don't disagree.
[Thu 2010/07/29 18:11:47] <allbery_b> http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/011775.html
[Thu 2010/07/29 18:11:47] <lopbot> Title: Making Light: Why I won't be doing steampunk this Saturday
[Thu 2010/07/29 18:12:50] <mrbucket> well, that was quite the buffer to read
[Thu 2010/07/29 18:14:13] <mrbucket> I guess i haven't hung out in #lopsa enough to see concrete examples of what i'd consider sexism, but for sure if someone feels hurt someone feels hurt regardless
[Thu 2010/07/29 18:15:31] <asm2home> mrbucket: Sure, but you there's only so much you can (or want to) put into a policy.
[Thu 2010/07/29 18:15:39] <mrbucket> yes